Episode 06: Music and Imagery (with Nicki Cohen, Phd, MT-BC)
In this episode, we explore the intriguing realm of Guided Imagery and Music (GIM) with Dr. Nicki Cohen. As an expert GIM practitioner and trainer, Dr. Cohen delves into the ways in which music and imagery can combine to unlock insights from our subconscious mind. She also shares her firsthand experiences training under the guidance of Helen Bonny and her personal, archetypical experiences as a GIM traveler. Tune in to discover the power of imagery and the many ways it can facilitate healing through musical experiences.
Episode Resources:
Website - Association for Music and Imagery
GIM Courses - Meadowlark Centre Courses Taught by Nicki Cohen & Santiago Vilá
Episode Transcript:
Marisa: Hello everyone and welcome back! Thanks for joining us for yet another episode of Musical Mindspace. In our last episode, we spent time talking about a different aspect of music, something Allyson called “the musical grey area” which focused on the importance of neutral music in our lives.
If you’ve been following along during these episodes, you might notice that we’ve been discussing many different perspectives on music, as our intro describes. We’ve talked about music through a neurologic perspective and we’ve also discussed social health and musical burnout. But we have yet to explore a very important aspect of musical processing - the psyche.
In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Nicki Cohen who has been a board certified music therapist since 1978 and a GIM practitioner since 2001. Dr. Nicki Cohen also taught at Texas Woman’s University for over 28 years and has taught courses on Guided Imagery and Music internationally. She’s also the author of a book, “Advanced Methods of Music Therapy Practice”- published in 2017.
I had the privilege of taking courses with Dr. Nicki during my undergraduate music therapy studies and I’m just so excited to be able to connect with her again after all of these years to share what she considers one of her favorite topics to discuss!
Imagery can be a really powerful experience, especially when combined with music. There is one quote that combines to mind throughout this episode and it’s by Meister Eckhart. It’s one that my dad has shared with me several times. It says, “When the soul wants to experience something, she throws out an image in front of her and then steps into it.”
Music therapy is a specialized clinical field and GIM (or Guided Imagery in Music also known as the Bonny Method of Music and Imagery) is a further specialization that you can receive as a board certified music therapist. I’m really looking forward to this conversation with Dr. Nicki and learning more about how imagery is evoked by structured listening experiences and how it can also provide us with insight to our subconscious minds. I’m also hoping we can talk a little bit about how these images can be interpreted and how they can be used to facilitate healing.
So, this is what’s on our mindspace today…this is episode 6…music and imagery…
Marisa: Hi everyone! Thanks for being here today and thank you, Dr. Cohen, for being here as well.
Dr. Nicki Cohen: Thank you. I’m very glad to be here.
M: We have talked about different aspects of music so far and we’ve focused on different perspectives on music - neurologic perspectives, music medicine, different perspectives of music. This is gonna be an interesting episode. It’s a little bit different focusing all on music and imagery and specifically G.I.M, so thanks for being here. Thanks for being a part of it. Just to kinda get us started, would you mind telling us a little about GIM?
D: GIM stands for Guided Imagery in Music and it was a music therapy related practice that began in the 1970s by a woman named Helen Bonny and she was a music therapy who was hired by a psychiatric hospital down in Baltimore, Maryland to work with persons who were involved in research down there primarily psychiatric patients and they were using LDS interesting enough at the time to see it if it had any kind of beneficial impact on these patients and Helen was hired to create music programs to accompany the research conditions and that led to her creating this entire practice which is called Guided Imagery in Music which she created after LSD was not legal anymore. And so that’s how the practice started but as it progressed it became very clinical in nature.
M: Yeah. Was she a music therapist when she started doing this research?
D: Yes!
M: She was…
D: She was, yes. She was a music therapist. She got her undergraduate equivalency and graduate studies at the University of Kansas and she stayed around in Kansas for a few years and helped in the office of the National Association of Music Therapy (NAMT) which was there in Lawrence, Kansas at the time. And it was only after that that she was hired to go down to Balimore, Maryland but she had been a music therapist for a few years before that happened.
M: Wow, wow. So for those of you listening also, I know we’re talking about different aspects of music and even in music therapy there are different aspects of how we practice as well. There’s more medical-centered approaches, and in this case, more approaches that are based more in music psychotherapy and this would be one of those that falls in there. It’s so interesting though to hear about how it started and what really struck me in reading your book, in this book chapter about GIM, was how you described her throughout the whole chapter. It seemed like you had such a good relationship with her. Can you tell us a little bit about that? It seemed like you knew her personally or knew a lot about her, you worked with her from time to time.
D: Thank you for asking that. She was my mentor. I did all of my GIM studies with her through becoming a fellow of the Association for music and imagery and I was one of the last of her mentees because she was getting older and got too sick to be able to work with students anymore and so we had a very special relationship. She was - it was somehow like a mother-daughter relationship and it was somewhat like a colleague relationship and I would go visit her when she moved away from Kansas and went down to Vero beach, Florida. I would go down if I wanted to see her and visit her. Loved my visits with her and all the things I learned from her and going through everything she had. She gave me all the original tapes that she had made which are really hard to find and she was very generous. And so, I also got to know her family quite well because I went down to Vero Beach to visit her and her daughter lived down there. And so, I got to know the daughter and then they would have family members come through while I was visiting and so I got to know them well. And I got to do an interview actually with the family members about having her, as it was called ‘Helen as mother’ and part of that interview actually found its way into the chapter I wrote about guided imagery in music in my book so I’m glad that I had a chance to represent them and their relationship to her. She was a teacher and she had very spiritual interests and she also - one of her children - Oh she was a musician! She had three degrees in music and her mother and her grandmother both had music degrees at a time when women didn’t. And so, one of her children, Francis, became the professional musician. He played trumpet in Broadway ensembles. And then her daughter became the spiritual one. She worked for one of the church synods nationally and was very much like her mother that way. And then her son, Erick, became a counselor and he’s the only one out of the three that actually learned how to practice GIM so it was really beautiful to see how the children mirrored aspects of the mother.
M: Yeah, it seemed like, from reading about her through you, that she just had such a big perspective because she incorporated so many things and so much of her life, different aspects of her life, into creating GIM. The spiritual side, like you said, the musical side. It was kinda like, I almost got a sense that it was just all of her in some way.
D: I agree. I agree. I think that she was the first person to recognize when she read someone or met someone who influenced what she did and she went out of her way to cite them and make sure people knew that this was another idea originally but it came from somebody else but that she took it and did something with it. Like the cut log diagram for example. She actually got that idea from someone who had come up with something similar. So, she always was very gracious about recognizing how people had influenced her. Hans Carol Loyber in his guided affective imagery and of course, Carl Rogers and Jung. She was very influenced by Jung as well.
M: Yeah and this is a time where music therapy was still in its very early stages, right?
D: Yes it was.
M: Yeah, there was, from what I was reading, it didn’t seem like there was even a lot of programs to become a music therapist at the time. It was still a little more limited in how you could, how you could become a music therapist.
D: That’s right and not only that, there wasn’t a lot going on in the psychotherapeutic realm of music therapy. As a matter of fact, Helen found herself not accepted at times by people in the National Association for Music Therapy because of the type of work that she did which is unfortunate, but one remarkable recognition was that in 1999 I believe, she was recognized by, it was a World Congress in Washington, D.C. and she was recognized as one of five training programs or five models of music therapy. That’s what it was - models. And so she, it was really important. It was actually one of the last times she was actually in public because she had not been accepted a lot and here she was being able to come around and be recognized for what she had done and it meant an incredible amount to her.
M: Yeah. I mean, she was a pioneer.
D: Yes she was.
M: She really was. A lot of this, when I was reading about the years that she started, I’m like, wow this is so progressive. Like, she was just so ahead of her time, I think.
D: Yes she was. Yes she was, most definitely.
M: So how long have you been practicing GIM?
D: I’ve been practicing since, well officially, since 2001. I started training in 1995 and uh, I was just curious about GIM because I had never studied it and I didn’t know anything about it. And I actually felt, um, critical going into the training thinking, well how in the world can you talk while music is playing. That’s just - sacreligious. *laughs* And then, um, after I took that first training, I was just transformed. And, you know, everything made sense to me after that and I continued through with the training so I became a fellow in 2001 and then I became a trainer in 2015. So I waited a long time until I had a call to become a trainer. Not a phone call, but a calling.
M: An internal calling..
D: Yes. *both laugh*
M: Yeah, it’s so interesting that you say that because I think it’s such a different perspective on music, even in the world, I think in general because we talk about music from all perspectives here but even in the music therapy world, I think it’s such a different approach. You know, there’s a lot of emphasis on live, patient-preferred music in music therapy and in this case, it’s very in the sense that the music that’s selected is pre-selected. It was things that - from what I understand - she selected herself, very intentionally, right? And it’s pre-recorded.
D: That’s correct! And it’s one of the few types of music psychotherapy that used that approach because most of them are very improvisational in nature. And, uh, it doesn’t work that way as much with GIM because the music has be an incredibly high quality and has to say what it needs to say musically, historically, in context, so on and so forth. And Helen spent years putting those 18 original programs together. And people since have created their own programs and shared them with folks but it takes a long time to find the right combination of musical selections and they have to be a high quality. And so, for that reason, in a way, the high fidelity of the music is part of what makes it so clinically viable.
M: Yeah, it’s almost like a journey, right? Each piece.
D: Yes.
M: I almost got a sense that it takes you on a full journey.
D: Yes, as a matter of fact, that’s a term that used in GIM training. That, when people come in to experience GIM, we call them travelers, and the therapists we call guides.
M: Mmmm.
D: And what they experience is not a session as much as it is a journey.
M: Oooof.
D: So the language is a little bit different to reflect the belief, you know, the construct underneath what it is that we’re doing.
M: Yeah..that’s beautiful. That’s such a beautiful way to see that, though. Yeah..
D: Yes, yes it is. Although not all the journeys are lovely.
M: Mmm.
D: Some of the journeys can be quite challenging if a person is ready for that to happen. And of course, GIM therapists are especially trained most of the time the individuals have been therapists for a number of years, have at least a Master’s degree, if not a doctorate. And so are able to recognize if a person is able to travel with GIM or whether that would be contraindicative and if a person is able to travel and takes to it. I always say it’s like a duck takes to water when somebody tries GIM and it works for them. Then you get into exploring what we call in Jungian terms, the shadow. And the material from the shadow can be challenging. And so sometimes journeys involve climbing up very rocky, steepy slopes or being down in a cave exploring the unconscious so to speak. And so, it’s not always lovely journey but it’s a meaningful journey and uh, people come well they say in GIM, you go through and out. You go through the work, uncomfortable material and then you find your way out of it and after that, you’re never the same ‘cause you’ve done that work.
M: Yeah, yeah. There was one experience, actually the only experience I’ve ever had with even an intro to GIM was one of your classes actually…
D: Oh!
M: And we talked about, I think you led a very small introductory experience and I had just been in a car accident that week -
D: Oh, wow.
M: And you pulled me aside and you were like, “actually this is not the time for you right now. This is probably not a journey that you want to take at this time.”
D: I don’t remember that but I’m glad that you do. Yeah.
M: Yeah, yeah. So when you said that earlier about, you know, making sure the person is ready or making sure they’re in the right space or even making sure, maybe, that they’re willing to go there.
D: Exactly..
M: That they’re willing to take that step and to maybe, embrace the opportunity to get there. Because, from what I understand, we’re in the subconscious. In GIM, you’re talking about the subconscious mind, right?
D: Yes, there are different terms to apply to it. Sometimes they use “deep self”. Sometimes they Self with a capital S if you’re talking Jungian. And sometimes it’s the “collective unconscious” if you’re talking Jungian because he believed a lot that the archetypal figures that we encounter in GIM, Helen kinda took that idea and talked about how archetypal imagery would come from the collective unconscious. I know, personally, I’ve had quite a bit of it. And it definitely connects me to my ancestry that way.
M: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about those archetypes?
D: Sure! Well, let me tell you my personal experience…
M: Yeah, sure..
D: I have, um, I grew up in a family that was not religious although we were Jewish, but at the time, back in the mid-20th century, Jews were more so or also an ethnic group as well. And so I was raised in that way, Jewish but now practicing and after I had done the training and started receiving GIM training as part of my training for becoming a trainer, I started having these very interesting sessions and I couldn’t make sense of them. Um, sessions with old men with long beards and hats and I realized later they were kippah, they were hats, they were the Jewish religious hats where you cover your head. Or the prayer shawls, I had one where I saw all these tents sort of closed up but they look like they had just had some kind of wonderful festival and it was over and I was looking at it. And I realized it was a Purim festival which was a Jewish holiday and I recognized it from my childhood that they had these things and how wonderful they were and how everybody dressed up in costume and acted silly. All these icons and images of Judaism came back to me, things that I don’t remember necessarily having experienced first hand but they came back to me as being a very important part of me and helping to guide me in a direction of re-embracing my Judaism so, that was one personal experience with archetypes.
M: Wow, and it’s again, it’s those images. It seems like that’s a big part of GIM is that relationship between the music and the imagery that is evoked as you’re listening.
D: Oh, you bet. Yes, um, imagery is not the same kind of imagery you think of with dreaming, however. The imagery can be visual. It can also be auditory. It can be tactile. It can be kinesthetic. It can be emotional, It can be what I call, in feeling, when you feel like you’re taking in something wonderful from some source. So there are many kinds of imagery and, um, there is an article that was written by a colleague of mine Fran Goldberg, where she talks about her theory about where the imagery comes from and she talks about it neurologically that when we hear music, we have a biochemical reactions which we call emotion. And the emotion, when we experience it, comes forward in our consciousness as imagery.
M: Mmmm.
D: And so, the music evokes the emotion, evokes the imagery, evokes more imagery. So not only do you have the imagery but you have the imagery that’s responding to the imagery.
M: *laughs”, Yeah!
D: And that’s how you get this feeling of narrative or some kind of a journey because it goes across through different pieces of music…
M: Wow. I might have actually saved that because I recognized that name when I heard it.
D: Oh okay!
M: And there was a part here…I was reading a different article and they actually, they quoted her and they said, “Goldberg proposed that music stimulates an emotional response via stimulation of the autonomic nervous system (or ANS) and the imagery occurs as a translator between the ANS and the brain as a multisensory representation of emotion” and I thought wow! Wow!
D: Yup!
M: What a beautiful way to think about that - to think about imagery. It’s something I think maybe we all experience on some level…
D: I think we do. We might not realize it. There are moments when they are perhaps meditating or praying, doing some kind of artwork, sewing, taking a walk in nature. There are different experiences we have that generate imagery. When you walk outside, I remember this living on the East coast, and you smell fall in the air. It’s this very recognizable smell - sharp and old and that definitely there could be a smell in the air but it brings back so much imagery of earlier times with changing leaves and going to school and so forth.
M: It’s amazing how sensory information of any kind of is sometimes so connected to memory…
D: Yes…
M: And I imagine that’s a big part of it too. As you listen to the music, as the imagery is evoked then you’re transported to these places, these times, these memories of those moments you experienced.
D: It’s an amazing part of Guided Imagery in Music. We have moments of what we call regression, not in the common form, but in the form of someone going back to a moment in their life where a large event occurred. And that moment can be positive or it could be traumatic. But someone will be in a journey, in a GIM journey, and all of a sudden their voice will change. It will get younger or they’ll talk in a simpler way. And it’s usually something that’s easy to detect as a guide if you’ve been doing it for a while. And I would say, “How old are you?”...”Four, I’m four years old…”. Boom! There’s always an exact knowing of the age and it’s the person at a younger age and sometimes they actually communicate with that younger version. Sometimes they bring love and support and comfort to that younger person or tell them “it wasn’t your fault”, “You’re good”, telling themselves all of the things that they wish they had heard when they were younger. So that’s a very big part of the imagery in music work is the fact that it brings a person back to previous memories.
M: Wow. I imagine that’s such a powerful and healing experience being in a session…
D: Oh, it is!
M: When do you have the opportunity to go back to those times or when do you really, in general, have the opportunity to be in those moments or sit in those moments that way and music, you know, is such a multisensory tool, a phenomenon for lack of a better word, and it just has the ability to take you to a lot of these places.
D: Yes, it does.
M: It’s such a unique experience that we have in music that it’s able to hold the space…
D: Yes, yes. You reminded me of a beautiful chapter in a book that was written by Ken Bruscia called “Visits from the Other Side” and it was about how men with AIDS would have visits in their journeys from people who have passed. And these visits were always to bring them unconditional love. And music was always sort of the bearer, what brought them into this relationship, this visit. And enhanced the visit. It was a beautifully written chapter and I’ve seen that a lot as a GIM guide that people will actually get to be in the presence of people they’ve lost and be able to say things to them or receive things from them in a very positive, health manner.
M: Wow, that’s amazing.
D: Yeah, it is. It’s something that we wish that we can have most of the time and there’s a way that we can, in a sense, bring it to ourselves in that kind of setting.
M: Yeah, so I know you touched on this a little bit earlier but now that we’re kind of getting into it a little more…what influences the type of music that is selected? Or what is it about the musical elements that maybe create these types of experiences? Because they seem like very profound, very deep experiences. We’re not practicing at a surface level anymore. We’re all the way in, right?
D: That’s right..that’s right…
M: So what is it, or what you do you think it is about the musical elements that kind of provide the space for these types of experiences?
D: That’s a great question, Marisa. I think that a GIM guide has to know the music backwards and forwards and up and down. They have to not only know what the programs are but be able to hear the music in the programs and to hear not only the music, but the key that the music is in. And looking at things like the harmonic structure, the different instrumental timbres, the rhythmic propelment, the ability to entrain to some of the music so choosing music that perhaps physiologically matches the emotional rate that the person is presenting, if they’re speaking quickly or moving their hands quickly, you might want to match that with music that’s more…faster and perhaps more percussive. Knowing the music, knowing lots and lots and lots of pieces of music that are of that high quality and the ability to evoke imagery. Knowing the programs, knowing how to put together programs or to substitute if a person ends up going in a direction which different from what the program perhaps intended…to actually bring in a different piece of music but the first thing you have to know is you have to just know all the elements of music and how they contribute to creating imagery…to creating certain types of imagery, so on and so forth, and then you can get into psychologically what these pieces are providing. Are they carriers of information? Do they help communicate? Are they mirrors that reflect where the person is? Those types of questions we ask as well but we, you have to know the music first. You have to know music and then you have to know the music.
M: Yeah, and I think that’s why it takes so much training to be able to do this specifically…
D: Yes…
M: Because of these little, it’s like a niche, very niche part of music and it requires, it seems like, so much knowledge…
D: Yes.
M: because you’re creating the environment but you’re also navigating it and you’re helping this person to go through it and that’s a whole nother level , I think..
D: Exactly…
M: of knowing the music, and maybe even knowing this person, and just trying to guide them along the way…
D: That’s correct. Yeah.
M: Wow, and this music is mostly, from what I understand, it’s most instrumental, correct?
D: That’s…umm…not necessarily…
M: Okay…
D: You have to use music with voice very…in a very informed way, though, because what happens with the voice is you get the mother’s voice. You get the father’s voice. You get the child’s voice.You get the negative mother, the evil father. You can get all kinds of archetypes and you can get, voices can emulate people in their life, in your traveler’s life so you have to really know that these pieces are music that are vocal are going to be quite evocative that people can assign to them meanings outside of the music itself. So, no, I think Helen put together some amazing programs that had vocal in them - big vocals.
M: Wow.
D: There’s a Sanctus that’s in one of the programs, a tenor singing it, but it rips me apart every time I hear it. It’s so beautiful and it’s so big and I just get completely ripped when I hear it. I can’t think of any other way to describe it. Because it’s the cumulative impact of all of the music prior to that and then that piece comes on and you can’t do anything but just take that piece in. You can’t do anything else. And that actually brings up something I wanted to mention, is that we don’t listen in the way we normally do. When we are traveling in a GIM manner, we take the music in at a deeper level. And so, we’re not listening to it and analyzing it and, you know, saying “Oh I like that performer” and things like that. We’re in a non ordinary state of consciousness and the music joins us there. So it’s a very different experience than what we would normally call listening.
M: So a lot more present…
D: Yes
M: Because it seems like our, you know, our day to day interactions with music and not even just as music therapists but just as humans, you know, going through the world, going about our day, I think a lot of our interactions are more passive. You know, we have music on the radio and we go into a Starbucks or a coffee shop and there’s music in the background. In music therapy even, it’s a lot more active and interactive in the music making and I think it requires a lot more presence but this even seems like, something beyond that..
D: Yes.
M: Something, almost like a different state of consciousness…
D: Yes it is.
M: Yeah.
D: Yes, it’s a different state and we call it a non-ordinary state of consciousness. Helen called it can altered state of consciousness and that we’re taught as GIM practitioners to work with the traveler to put them in an altered state of consciousness first before we turn the music on so that they will receive it in a different way than just listening to it in the here and now.
M: Wow. Can you tell us a little bit then about the structure of a GIM session?
D: Yeah!
M: It seems like there’s very structured parts of it..
D: Yes!
M: And that’s the first part, correct? Or the second part is it?
D: The first part is called the pre-session and that’s when the guide and traveler talk and catch up and come up with some kind of a direction, a therapeutic direction, and that’s either called a focus or an intention for the session. And then the second part of the session is called the induction and that’s when the guide leads the traveler in some kind of a relaxation to bring them into a non-ordinary state of consciousness. And then reminds them of what their focus is or the intention is. Then the music comes in…that’s the third part of the session. And the music can be short or up to 50 minutes long, depending on the level of the traveler and what they need that day. And so, during the time that the music is playing, the travel and the guide are dialoguing. The traveler is talking about their experiences and the guide is communicating with them about it, helping them to perhaps explore it a little more or to clarify it or to engage with it. And the guide is taking a transcript the entire time the music is playing. So that is very very important that the guide just doesn’t leave the traveler alone in the non-ordinary state of consciousness with this music. But they’re there. They know the music. They know what’s coming up in the music. Then they’ll have a guide into the music and they know how to guide so that the situation remains safe at all times. And then after the music is over, you have what’s called the post-session and that usually involves something like the drawing of a mandala, something that helps to bring the person back to a more ordinary state of consciousness thus getting another product that they can take with them along with the transcript. And so, there’s usually some kind of drawing or writing and then there’s verbal processing. So it’s those four stages that take place.
M: What an experience…
D: Oh it is, always. I just got done teaching a course in GIM and I get so excited…
M: Yeah, well it’s amazing to think that there’s people out there doing this type of work and that this is available to people because I think it’s such - our profession in general sometimes feels like a very small world and there’s not a whole lot of us in the grand scheme of things. I think they just hit 10,000, was it? Um, certified music therapists through CBMT the certification board.
D: That’s huge!
M: Yeah, or maybe 12 but I think it was 10 and for us we’re like wow! We’re growing!
D: I know!
M: But when you compare that to maybe how many doctors, how many nurses, how many physical therapists, occupational therapists, counselors there are…it’s really small. I think it’s relatively small and this specialization is so unique and even a smaller subset of this beautiful world that we work in and kind of live in professionally. And so it’s really interesting to hear about this and just to learn more about this process…such an incredible thing.
D: Yes, I agree. I agree.
M: What has really stood out to you the most doing this type of work?
D: The beauty…the beauty that people can encounter…and this setting where they’re able to create the world that they crave and want - world that is beneficial and health and that the idea, and this is very humanistic, but the idea that they have the ability within themselves, the strength and the knowledge to be able to heal themselves…
M: Yeah…
D: And that the music and the imagery help them in this quest to heal themselves and the guide is there as a form of support for that, but not to direct them. And so, to see what people can discover on their own that they needed, something…the meaning they can find…by traveling this way…
M: Yeah…so for anyone listening that’s interested in possibly exploring GIM and getting a session, maybe in GIM, where would you recommend them? Or how would you recommend connecting with somebody who’s specialized in GIM?
D: The association for music and imagery and I could send you the link if you like…
M: Sure! We’ll go ahead and post that for anyone listening, we’ll post this on our episode page..
D: Great. It is the organization that oversees the education of those therapists who train to do Guided Imagery in Music and they also, AMI also oversees the training programs so that there’s a quality assurance that goes on with that but they also have a directory on their website that you can go to and look to to see if there are GIM therapists in your area. Also, a lot of GIM therapists since the pandemic are doing virtual sessions and it’s different than doing it in-person but most of the work that I do now is virtual. And it’s, I think it works as well if not better for me to do virtual because I’ve got a slight hearing impairment and when I do virtual I can hear everything the traveler says. And when I’m in the room with them, I can’t always do that. So, not that I recommend that you find someone with a hearing impairment, but GIM guides have learned how to conduct sessions virtually as well so you’ve got sort of a telehealth setting that you can find. But AMI has a list of directory and they have a list that tells you all about the training programs so if you are interested in finding out about trainings, you can find that out as well.
M: Yeah! Thanks for sharing that. And you know, it kind of…while you were mentioning that, about telehealth, it gave me an interesting thought. I wonder if there’s some type of maybe, like environmental factor in doing sessions telehealth in the sense that you can be in your home in a place of hopefully comfort rather than going into somebody else’s space. And although it’s sometimes nice to go into a clinic or to go into a practice or to go into somebody’s area because they’ve set it up in a certain way to provide that space for the experience but I think, for others, I’ve noticed, ‘cause I do home health as well, sometimes it has its own, you know, benefits of going into their environment in some ways. And not always. Again, not always, but in some times I’ve noticed it’s more comfortable, it’s more familiar maybe, and they’re able to sink a little deeper if it’s a place of comfort.
D: Good point. Yes, I’ve noticed that also. And interestingly enough, pet animals…*laughs* people dote on their animals but the pets will come in and join them which there’s something about GIM that seems to attract cats, I’ve noticed.
M: You know, I’m kinda not surprised to hear that…
*both laugh together*
M: Our pets are very intuitive.
D: They are!
M: And I think maybe they get this little sense that somethings going on over here. I need to check this out.
*both laugh*
M: Yeah, so what about for music therapists now. I know you mentioned, you know, training links, but you do training on your own.
D: I do!
M: And you have, do you have any trainings coming up that music therapists should know about?
D: I train with my co-trainer, his name is Santiago Vila and he lives down in Bogota, Columbia and we do most of our trainings together. We’ll have also level one trainings, which is the first level of GIM training, coming up within the next year and I also will be teaching a supportive music and imagery class and that is for music therapists, not necessarily who want to go on and do the entire GIM training but want to find out about imagery and want to learn how to do imagery at a basic level. And I’ve started teaching that with good results so I’ll be offering that. And on my website, they’ll be a schedule of all these trainings that are coming up.
M: We’ll share that as well. All of them sound like such amazing resources for music therapists
D: Thank you!
M: Yeah, and at different levels too so it’s almost like, if you want to go all in, you can go all in but if you want to maybe have just an introduction about how to do a little bit of this in your work and how to incorporate it safely as a music therapists, there’s opportunities for that too. So, before we kind of close off, you mentioned a level one training. So just to clarify, what would a music therapist need in order to qualify to do this level one training?
D: A music therapist would need to have what a music therapist has which is at least a Bachelor’s degree and certification or a certification in their country if they’re from some place outside of the United States and a couple of years of experience as a clinical therapist.
M: Okay, perfect.
D: In order to go on into the training, you must have a Master’s degree but at the beginning level, you can have just a Bachelor’s degree.
M: That’s good to know. That’s good to know. So, we’ll link all of these websites, all of these resources, we’ll provide links as we usually do and our episode transcript and there’s a blog post that comes with each episode where we share links and resources, anything that we talked about in the episode…articles, book chapters, anything that comes up will be linked there as well. We’re also going to include a link to Dr. Nicki Cohen’s book so that you can go and check it out if you’re interested. It talks about advanced techniques in music therapy, not just GIM but you also mention Nordoff-Robbins I believe and several other types of music psychotherapy and so feel free to go look at that if you’re interested in learning more about the history of each of these approaches or models and check it out. Support.
So thank you so much for being here today. We’re going to have some interactive polls on our Spotify page if you’d like to tell us any of your thoughts or anything that comes up. If you have extra questions for Dr. Nicki, feel free to write them in there and just let us know your thoughts. Feel free to send us a voice memo even of anything that came up for you when you were listening and any questions you have, anything you’d like to know more about moving forward in this podcast. We appreciate you for listening and Dr. Nicki, we appreciate your for being here and sharing your beautiful experiences with us…
D: My privilege. I enjoyed it myself.
M: Thank you. Until next time…bye everyone!
