Episode 04: Coping with Musical Burnout (with Omar Oyoque)

In this episode, we explore the topic of musical burnout, a very common experience among individuals in music careers. This episode features Omar Oyoque, a professional touring musician and music therapy student. Join us as we discuss what musical burnout is, the symptoms of it, and share tips on how to cope with it. Whether you're a professional musician or a hobbyist, this episode is for anyone who has ever felt overwhelmed or exhausted by the demands of making music. Tune in to learn more about coping with musical burnout and taking care of your mental health as a musician.

Episode Resources:

• Website - Connect with Mike and the Moonpies

• Article - “62% of Music Community Is Experiencing Financial Difficulty: MusiCares Survey” by Variety

• Article - “The Science of Musician Mental Health: Pandemic & Beyond” by Spotify for Artists

• Article - “Musician’s Self-Care: Five Things to Do When the Burnout Hits” by Katie Glassman’s Fiddle School

• Article - “10 Tips For Avoiding Musician Burnout” by the Music Business Academy

• Article - “Burn-out an "occupational phenomenon": International Classification of Diseases” by the World Health Organization

Episode Transcript:

Marisa: Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us again for another episode of Musical Mindspace and for your ongoing support of this podcast.  In our last episode, we spoke about the social benefits of music and how our relationship with music changes throughout the course of our lives…how music serves different social roles as we grow and change as individuals. 

Most of our episodes so far actually have focused on the positive aspects of music, how music can benefit various aspects of our lives. This episode is going to be a little different in the sense that we’re going to really get into some of the realities of being a musician and that includes being a music therapist, a music educator, a professional musician, and a big one for this episode…a touring musician. 

Today we are joined by one of our very own, Omar Oyoque. Omar has a Bachelor’s degree in music and is currently studying to be a board certified music therapist. He also plays steel guitar and is the bassist for one of my favorite country bands, Mike and the Moonpies. He’s played all over the world, including some really cool places like the Grand Ole Opry and has even recorded an album with the London Symphony Orchestra at the famous Abbey Road Studios. 

As a touring musician, Omar is almost always on the road playing shows. If you follow the band closely, you’ve probably seen their tour schedules and now what I’m talking about. Being a musician is not an easy task. Although it brings so much joy and success, it’s also an ever changing environment with a lot of physical, social, emotional, and performative demands. 

As music therapists or just as someone who loves music, I think it’s easy to talk about the benefits of music. And that’s totally fair because the list is going on, right? Most of us in the music field chose a career in music because we love it. It brings us comfort. It helps us process life experiences. It gives us purpose, fulfillment, and success. But what happens when the very thing that we use to cope with our lives becomes or, at the very least, contributes to our daily stresses. Each music career has its own stressors and that’s what we want to talk about here in this episode. What is musical burnout? And how can we recognize these symptoms and work through them in a way that is meaningful and productive?

I’m really looking forward to Omar’s perspective on this episode and seeing how his experiences as a touring musician and a music therapy student have influenced his perspective on this particular topic. 

So….this what’s on our mindspace today….this is episode 4….Coping with Musical Burnout.  

Marisa: Hey

Omar: Hi!

M: Thanks for being here. 

O: Yeah, I’m really excited for this. 

M: I thought it would be really cool actually to have you on this podcast because out topic for today’s episode is musical burnout…

O: Ooof.

M: And I feel like you might have a lot to say about this particular aspect of music. 

O: Thoughts, just thoughts. I definitely have thoughts.

M: Yeah, when we talk about musical burnout I feel like it’s something that really isn’t talked about too much. I think there’s a lot of emphasis on just occupational burnout in general and we’re hearing a lot about that and self care and it’s kind of like everywhere right not because it’s so important. But I think musical burnout is such a unique experience as musicians or music therapists, music students, music educators…

O: I think it’s also hard to recognize when it’s happening. It’s not something that you consciously think about. 

M: Yeah. 

O: It’s easy to forget that that’s something happening to you and then, you know, maybe sometime down the line you’re like, “Oh! That’s what’s going on!”

M: Yeah, it’s such a unique thing so I’m really excited to get into it today. For every episode, if you’ve been listening, we’ve been sharing resources, journal articles, theses even, and when I went to go do some research for this episode, I didn’t find as much as I thought I would so I’m really interested to hear your thoughts and kind of share this with everyone listening. 

So, in other episodes, we’ve talked a lot about how much can be a tool and how it can be a resource for mental health, social health, neurologic health, just general well-being. But, what I really want to focus today is…what happens when the thing that you turn to, the thing that you use to cope, you know, with life experiences and things that are happening, the thing that gives us inspiration and creativity suddenly becomes the source or at least associated with the source of a lot of our stress. It’s such, like I said, it’s such a unique thing. So if this is something that’s come up for you as a musician or anyone listening, you’re definitely not alone in this experience.

O: Yeah, 100%. 

M:  Yeah, so let’s start with just general burnout for those of you who aren’t familiar with the term burnout or haven't seen as much about this recently. I just want to share just to give us a starting point of what burnout is. The World Health Organization in the ICD-11 categorizes burnout or defines burnout as this: “a syndrome conceptualized as resulting from chronic workplace stress that has not been managed. It is characterized by these three dimensions’’. And the three that they mention are feelings of total energy depletion or exhaustion. They also mention a decreased mental distance from one’s job. So being negative towards yourself, your job, or your situation and also just your efficiency, your efficacy professionally is something that becomes drained or decreased. 

O: Mhm. And this, I feel like, as a musician these are things that we don’t really notice because we consider it a part of the field or like, it’s like a reaction to the action that is the lifestyle of being a gigging musician or a touring musician. Like somebody who does it full time or really dedicates a lot of their time to it. 

M: Yeah, and I feel like that’s true of any occupation, like I have friends who are nurses and they’re like “Yeah, I just worked a 12 hour shift, of course I’m exhausted. It’s just part of it”. It just becomes something that we get accustomed to, I think. We just try to..

O: And I think, I personally feel that sometimes the musical burnout could be a subliminal thing. 

M: Mm.

O: Cause, like you mentioned right now, somebody says, if you talk to a nurse, they’re like “Yeah, I just worked a 12 hour shift” and obviously we all know like, “Dang, that’s a lot”. But when you have a musician, you’re like “Well, I woke up at 11, had 4 hours of travel, loaded in at 2pm, did the thing, soundcheck at 3, had dinner at 5/6, you know, got ready then you do the show, and then you go socialize. That’s a whole day in itself and so you’re working literally a 24 hour shift depending on how long the tour is or you know, every day is a prep day for what is a show. 

M: Yeah, I feel like I experience that, not to that length, but to some extent I feel that doing home health. I feel like I get up, I check my emails, I do all this stuff, I check in, you know, with people at the office, and then I have a bunch of sessions and I’m just driving around, and I love it so much, I wouldn’t trade it for anything..but it’s a lot. I can be a lot. 

O: Yeah..

M: So, can we kind of talk a little bit about musical burnout. We’ve talked about burnout in general. Musical burnout is, the best way I can describe it, cause again I couldn’t really find a lot of info about this…but for me in my own words… musical burnout is basically the experience of burnout as it is, but in this case specifically related to either engaging, making, listening, being with music. And it’s something that I think happens specifically to people in music careers. Well, maybe not specifically but at least more frequently, I should say, in music careers so music therapists (in my case), touring musicians like you, music educators, students…

O: I had a thought about this earlier too cause I was thinking about, you know, what could we talk about in the episode, and one thing that I definitely think is worth acknowledging is that it can happen at any level of your musicality or musical career and at any age too. You know, stress isn’t something that only happens just like adults. Sometimes you get, at a young age, it’s easy to get trapped into the idea, or not so much trapped but enamored with the idea of success and fame and stability in music. But we all kind of move forward with the ideology of “it’s time to pay the dues”. And so we tend to associate these triggers to the musical burnout as a part of the process of attaining that fame/success and so the line becomes blurred into what’s actually beneficial and what is harmful. 

M: Like, I just gotta push through it and deal with it until I “make it”.

O: Because, the greats that have come before me had to go through this. 

M: And you’re speaking now just to clarify from the perspective of a musician, a professional musician.

O: Yes. 

M: Right now, for this part, yes. Can you tell us, as a professional musician, and also as a music therapy student, can you tell us like maybe how you’ve experienced this or has any of this come up for you just day-to-day wise trying to juggle all of these things because I remember being incredibly stressed as a music therapy student. It’s a very hard program for those of you who have gone through it. It’s a very tough thing. There’s a lot that’s demanded of you so doing that while also working more than full time and playing all these shows and recording all these albums and doing all the stuff that you do. 

O: It’s definitely maintaining relationships and viewing this in the aspect of the music therapy student you have a culture centered approach and a person-centered approach when you’re doing this lifestyle I feel like based on what I’ve learned and what I’ve read. You’re having these one on one interactions with the same individuals for long periods of time and of course there’s connections and rapport that’s being built, right? But what happens on the days where like, I’m just a human. 

M: Yeah.

O: With our bandmates, or to some people these are your coworkers. They’re our friends, our brothers. There’s our bandmates, we’re all individuals that come from very very different backgrounds and our lived experiences…

M: Different needs…

O: Yeah, different paths to get to the one we’re at together. But just because we’re at the same place together doesn’t mean that we got there the same way. 

M: I think you can also physically be in the same place with someone but not be in the same place emotionally or mentally be in the same place either. I imagine that’s tough. 

O: So, back to what I was saying, is when you’re living with multiple, more than two individuals on the road, traveling, you have the travel fatigue. You have the days where something is happening personally at home and this individual’s dealing with that. And while the rest of the group is in one certain level, or vibe for lack of a better term, you know, there’s a cohesiveness that’s happening within the group over here but this one member is just not in it. And for whatever reason, that’s valid. 

M: Yeah…

O: Because that’s what they’re feeling, right? So then you recognize that, okay, well we all come from different backgrounds, different cultures, so what can I do to connect with this person on an individual level and what can I also do to, um, honor and respect what this person holds valuable to them because, again, we’re living in a shared space for months at a time. 

M: Yeah, actually, can we back up for a second cause I know this about you. So, for context for everybody listening, me and Omar have built a wonderful life together over the last six years.

O: Yes..

M: So I feel like I’m coming from a different place listening to him but for everybody that doesn’t know you outside of listening to this podcast, um, can you tell everybody a little bit about your life. Like, what are you doing right now? And a little bit about like musically, what’s been going on with you.   

O:. Definitely, so I am a product of Mexican American parents. My dad is from the U.S. My mom is from Monterrey, Nuevo Leon and my grandfather was a mariachi singer. That’s where I got my first experiences to music. Growing up, I was always surrounded by music. I always liked the idea of musicianship and being engulfed by music so, um, I joined the orchestra in sixth grade - fifth grade actually. And then that’s where you and I had met. And then so, for those of you all listening, my whole life I’ve been playing music or I like to say my whole life. Realistically, I probably started playing around ten years old, my first experiences dabbling with an instrument. 

So, I went to college, studied music for a little bit in 2010, didn’t finish my degree. And then I went and studied agriculture science, fell in love with country music there and then came back home with this degree that I acquired in agriculture science and didn’t do anything. But I fell in love with the music. And so, the music was always present during the entire journey. But I started playing pedal steel guitar here in the RGV and so I was the guy that was called. So I started picking up gigs left and right. And then I eventually joined a band. Playing in that band ended up opening the door to another opportunity and it led me to where I’m at now which is playing bass for the last five years with Mike and the Moonpies. 

And so, I’ve been at various levels. I mean, we all have to go through these various levels and, like I mentioned earlier, it’s part of paying the dues, right? 

M: Yeah. 

O: But, yes. That’s what I’ve been doing. Through this time I’ve made, you know, four records with the band and..

M: It’s been a lot. Can you them a little bit about ya’lls touring schedule, just as we move into musical burnout?  

O:  Yeah, yeah. So generally, we’re out on the road and this is not uncommon for most touring bands that are trying to find that success, but, you know, we’re traveling over two hundred days out of the year. Easily. Traveling. And that includes shows. Shows can be anywhere near two hundred…

M: Yeah, for context, we’re recording this in July. We’re looking ahead to August and there’s almost a show, like, every day. 

O: Yeah. 

M:. Yeah we see that a lot so I think that’s really important just for like, everyone listening to get a sense of what we’re talking about and just like, when we’re talking about energy depletion, and as we move forward into what musical burnout looks like, and how it presents. I think it’s just important to like, set that context and say, you know, this is what I’m doing all the time. And when you’re not touring, when you’re not playing or actually in the middle of all of this, you’re also a music therapy student…

O: Yeeeah…

M: …doing practicums. You’re in sessions and you’re session planning, and you’re documenting, and you have supervision, and you’re taking multiple classes at once. And you’re doing great but wow. That’s a lot. Like, I’m always just like, how are you doing all of this? 

O: I mean…

M: How are you doing all of this? That’s a lot- - just to do either thing, I think, is a lot. And so, I’m really interested to see what you have to say and as move along this. So, now that’ve got some context, I kinda want to go into a little bit more about musical burnout. I know we touched on, what it looks like and given a little bit of a picture, you know about it. So I think to be more clear about it, I want to talk about some of the symptoms that happen with musical burnout specifically and we’ll see if this resonates with some of you all listening. 

So the first one here, and feel free to chime in as I go through the list…a state of creative and emotional exhaustion. This could be specifically with music, right? Writers block if you’re a songwriter. I can look like financial stress related to music or jobs as musicians and actually I found some really interesting statistics that I wanna share because I don’t think financial stress for musicians is talked about enough as it should be, especially when we’re talking about musicians, like you said, at every level. I think this is something, especially coming out of COVID, it was just a really scary time for live music and everything that comes from live music: venues, bands…

O: Yeah, everybody in the industry felt it…

M: It was a lot, yeah, and so some of these statistics. Actually, one of from 2019 by the National Health interview survey (and you’ll see this again, everything that we link or reference will be on our episode blog post if you wanna check it out) but this specific survey they, um, I’m not sure how many people they surveyed but 62% of the people that responded of the musicians reported having financial stress. And then in 2020, Spotify did another article in 2022 actually, and over 2/3 of the people that they interviewed felt financial stress. And so I think that’s just important context wise again as talk about all these multifaceted parts. It’s a complex thing. I feel like I say that in every episode, but like, this is a really complex thing.  I think it’s a little bit of everything. 

O: Yeah. I think everything you said definitely makes sense because I’ve experienced these things too. And I think one thing that I will mention is that sometimes it’s hard to find that line where ... .so you have this and you finally get to this point like you’re doing all your work, right? Being a musician. You're going out, doing your gig, doing your PR, doing it all, and then you finally get home and all of this hits. And you’re like, “I just don’t feel any motivation. I just feel like I need to chill”. 

M: Yeah, it’s that creative and emotional exhaustion from earlier…

O: And some of us might not be able to recognize that, but, you know, there’s also that moment that I think needs to be acknowledged that it’s okay to just turn that switch off. 

M: Mhm.

O: Because we all have a part to play in this world that is being a musician - an entertainer. There’s this, this aura, I guess that comes with part of being an entertainer that you kind of wanna…when you’re home and your focusing on yourself, it’s okay to turn off that part of being the entertainer. 

M: I feel like that really resonates with me too, just like as a therapist because I think, and I’ve read this somewhere recently. I can’t remember where but they talk about how therapists sometimes, even though we have the resources to cope with all these things, you know, and we help others do it. That’s our job, right? That’s our main thing. But, as therapists, there’s this expectation of, because we’re therapists, we have to have it together all the time and we have to be presented in a certain way. And, you know, we’re humans too. Kind of like you said, I think, similar to being an entertainer, you have to like maintain that, um, personality..

O: That persona…

M: Yeah that persona!

O: That’s the word I was looking for earlier. Not aura, the persona! 

M: Yeah, and it’s anything, I’ve read that that contributes to even more of the burnout that we’re talking about. 

O: Exactly…

M: That idea of just having to keep that up all the time is just a lot, you know? 

O: I think and I guess the point that I’m trying to make is…know how to turn that off. How to turn off that persona and escape from it to sit in yourself and ruminate…to engage in some introspection. 

M: Yeah…

O: I think that’s something that I like to practice personally.

M: Yeah, so all of these things, starting to, like I said earlier, build a picture of what musical burnout out is. So I’m gonna keep reading on the list because we hit about the exhaustion and how maybe it presents as writer’s block…financial stress…Another one of the big things is a lack or at least a decrease in interest in playing or listening to music. So now, I wanna talk really quick about being a music education student for anybody listening. I see ya’ll because being a music student is hard. You have so many classes and they’re all one hour classes most of the time but you’re doing at least three hour work. You have applieds. You have ensembles. You have so many things. As a music therapy student, you have classes. You have therapies that you’re going to. You have session planning and even as therapists, you have all of these things going on musically and for you, I imagine, preparing for the music that you’re going to play live. It’s kinda that same thing. We’re all, no matter what aspect or career of being music related that we’re talking about, I think there’s usually a demand that you have to learn music at a certain level and sometimes that means you practice a lot. Sometimes that means you play it over and over and over and over. And sometimes you play music so much because you have to that you lose that sense of wanting to do it for you or do it, just enjoying it. Like I said earlier, what do you do when that thing that helps you get through life is something that you have to do - when it becomes a job, when it becomes, I don’t wanna say a chore, but maybe practicing sometimes can feel like that, you know. 

O: Yeah. 100%. 

M: Yeah, that’s a big one. I think that’s gonna be a really important one. Another symptom might be not looking for new artists. If you’re somebody that used to or usually is looking for new music on Spotify or has the radio on and suddenly you’re not really looking out. You’re not really exploring. You’re just, maybe not even listening. I know for me, personally, like when I first graduated and you were around at the time, but I was playing a lot more locally. I would play at like coffee shops, you know, just for fun with some close friends. And then once I started working and I had to learn all that rep and just spend so much time in the music everyday, it was hard for me to like, want to go out and play music on my own time. And I think you said something about that earlier, about like coming home…when you come home, it’s hard to want to go out and listen to music or play music because it’s just like, you’ve done it so much. 

O: Yeah. I think one thing, I mean so just to like clear things up…so everything that you’ve explained so far is definitely a symptoms that I have felt before. 

M: Yeah…

O: So to go back and kinda touch on the point where you said a lack or decreased interest in like playing or listening to music…that’s definitely something that I feel is not really recognized. Like sometimes it’s just like “Oh, that is what I like to listen to and that’s it”, right but I guess that’s just when like looking for new artists. But when like, playing or listening to music, you think, “Okay, this is where I’m at” and “this is where I wanna be” and then it ties into searching for new artists. So then you’re having two things happening at the same time where it’s like “I don’t really feel playing…I’m just going to listen to the same thing I’ve been listening to”. And you’re like, “I don’t really feel like listening to anything new also” and so it’s like this constant circle of…there’s no out. You don’t want to play so you don’t want to listen. You don’t want listen…you’re not listening so you’re not playing. 

M: Yeah, yeah. Cause you’re exhausted, musically. 

O: Yeah, cause you’re exhausted!

M: You’re exhausted musically, specifically you’re exhausted and sometimes for me, I feel like, I even take it where I don’t want to hear music at all. My car rides, most of the time during the week, I would say my car rides are silent unless I find something that I absolutely love and I’m obsessed with for that week. 

O: And I think that brings up a really good point when you say that. Things that I do for myself to take care of me is, yeah I’ll listen to the same music that I’ve been listening to but it’s outside of what I do. So, for example, I play country music for a living, but for those who know who I am or know me, know that I love heavy metal.  

M: Yeah…

O: And so I keep my like, my interest in heavy metal always going. Like that’s personal to me and country music. I love country music. I love old classic country music. I love just good country music, right? And I feel like I make good country music, but…

M: You do. Ya’ll do, for sure. 

O: But I don’t listen to country music very much often anymore. I found myself listening to a bunch of heavy metal or the closest I’ll get to listening to country music is maybe like some 70s cosmic country…

M: But also, you’re immersed in it all the time. And I think that’s kind of the idea that I want to get through as we talk about this. We’re immersed in the music, in whatever capacity, in any way, however you’re interacting with it, you are immersed in the music for so much that, you know, it becomes actually something that unfortunately becomes hard to do in moments. I’m not saying that like…career change or anything like that. I’m just saying that, from a self care perspective, and just feeling like “This is tough for right now”, you know? And we’ll kind of get some more coping stuff too. I want to talk about that too now that we’ve opened up that can of worms. But yeah, it’s hard. Some days are hard, like I said. 

There’s a couple more symptoms I want to talk about. Um, one that comes up a lot when I talk about this and honestly sometimes I even talk about this with my clients because I think, as music therapists, we have such a unique perspective. I’ve said that before, but it’s such a unique perspective on music. And I think that musical burnout is something that maybe we have experienced as music therapists and so, just with our understanding of music it’s really something that we can see. I’ve had several clients just tell me that it’s not something that other therapists understand because it’s something so specific to music. So one of those big ones is feeling uninspired…musically again, musically feeling uninspired. Another one is negative feelings. I talked about that a little bit with just burnout but not thinking about it in a musical context, negative feelings towards yourself and the music that you make, maybe how you sound, yeah.

O: Yeah…

M: Yeah..

O: I know that…

M:  Just not feeling confident, because you’re not in it. Because you’re tired. It’s that emotional and creative exhaustion from earlier again…

O: Yup.

M:...that I think is going to be a repeating factor in this. It’s like that, all of these things at the same time. All of these stressors, these environmental factors, maybe family dynamics, work situations, um like context, medical stuff you have going on, friend things, maybe school stuff, just everything that kinda makes us, us in like a grander sense, coming together..yeah…and affecting everything…to create this…feeling of…emotional, well, musical burnout. 

Yeah, and sometimes that also manifests as physical symptoms of stress too so difficulty sleeping, headaches, fatigue, everything that you would get along with general burnout. 

O: I think one thing worth mentioning too is, you know, one thing that’s synonymous or, and it doesn’t have to be but I think there’s a lot of other factors outside of just the music that contribute to affecting the music. 

M: Mhm. 

O: Like earlier, when I mentioned individuals going through personal problems at home, but even while you’re doing your work. Let’s say, for the example of the gigging musician, there’s alcohol. And granted, this isn’t everybody’s lifestyle because every individual is unique in their own sense. There’s individuals that tour and they stick to like, strict workout schedules and you know, they take care of themselves but not everybody is capable of doing that and that’s okay. 

M: Yeah because there’s so much going on. 

O:  And that’s also why we’re talking about this so that we can like, hey, sometimes we don’t recognize these things but you don’t have to switch over to a better diet with, you know, going and working out every day and getting a gym membership. I’d be the last person to tell you how to work out or cook recipes or meal prep and all that but there are things that we can do to still take care of ourselves, to take care of our mental health even. And our physical health because, you know, even like teachers for example, you’re dealing with multiple individuals, growing, developing individuals that…kids have so much energy and so much output that you’re, one individual is just receiving these multiple outputs and it can be overwhelming. But how do you go home and say, “Ah man I had a really rough day” and you’re like “How? You’ve been playing music all day. That’s the thing you love to do”. And it’s like, well we’re working on the Pirates of the Caribbean orchestra piece right now or whatever the piece may be, you know? 

M: Yeah…

O: But there’s still work that comes with that…fatigue and taking in so much…

M: sensory information…

O: Yeah, sensory information, you know. Musicians, we’re trained to listen to pitch and so you could be “Man this one kid’s struggling to stay in tune” and it’s affecting the orchestra or whatever and you’re trying to work on giving the individual your undivided attention while being present for the rest of the group. Those are mentally exhausting things that can happen. 

M: Yeah, and if you listened to our episode or one of our earlier episodes about what goes on in our brains neurologically while we’re listening or making music, we said it was a workout for the brain because it really is. You’re listening, you’re playing, like there’s so many things going on from a neurologic perspective and that’s tiring in itself. You know what I mean? And then I think music or really any artistic career but, you know, we’re kinda focusing on music here, but there is also a need to be creative and I think when we’re tired, when we’re fatigued, when we’re depleted, um, it’s really hard to be creative because we’re so tired so how can you be creative or even expressive. You know, you performing live, you have to be expressive. You’re extra expressive and I’m not just talking about musically. If ya’ll have seen him, he’s expressive in every type of way. And so, being in a field like this, you have to. It’s almost a necessary part of the profession that you’re in…a music profession…to have that creativity and have that inspiration and have that motivation, you know, when maybe improv with clients, I have to be very perceptive and I have to in tune and I have to very present in listening so that I can respond to them musically and have this like musical dialogue about very complex things: what they’re feeling, what they need in the moment. And it’s hard to do that sometimes, I think when you’re tired yourself. And so again, anybody interacting with music. Music education, like you just described, teachers, musicians, touring musicians, anybody playing gigs, music therapists too. I think it’s something we all experience in different ways but still the same concepts I think.

O: I think one thing to take notice here also is that there’s a product that’s being made, that’s being produced in whichever way that you’re making music. And so, you mentioned earlier that music students…I mean, we’re all music majors at some point, even just individuals that are just learning a new instrument at home…you put so much time into this and in the academia world, you have to practice on top of studying for theory, scoring and arranging, and then you have your ensembles, you eat, sleep, drink music. And that, with that comes the idea that we have to perform it perfect.

M: Yeah, the pressure. I have a pressure. 

O:. Yeah, and then you move forward in whichever career you’re going to take and and the product comes with the idea that it has to be perfect. And so, as the entertainer, you have to put on a perfect performance because this is how people have seen you play for so long and they come expecting that…

M: And you have to maintain that…

O: You have to maintain that because, in your head, you’re like, .”This is what I’ve been working for…to play for the masses”. You know? And people see the dynamics that happen and they come to see that and you wanna deliver a good experience because this is who you’ve made your product for. 

M: Yeah..

O: So then comes that fine line of like, oh, man, I’ve created this entire thing and it has to be perfect but it’s okay for it not to even be perfect like I mess up so much onstage at times but you know, there’s so many other elements happening that we don’t really have to be so hard on ourselves. 

M: Yeah, it’s a process. 

O: It’s definitely a process. 

M: We’re here for the journey. 

O: Yeah, we’re here for the journey... 

M: Whatever that looks like that day…and that’s the music therapist talking in me now, but it’s true. It’s definitely true and now that we’ve kind of, really gotten into this and talked a lot about just how this presents and you know, what the experience of what musical burnout might be like in different situations and different contexts, can we talk a little bit about, like what do you do and I know we have some specific things we want to hit on about how we can either work through this feeling, process this feeling…cause I said this earlier but I’m gonna say it again, you are not alone in this experience…I think this is something that, interacting with music, that might happen at any level, maybe not an extreme burnout out but maybe just a fatigue or kind of like a beginning stage of a little bit of interest being decreased. So, however you’re feeling this on this continuum that is musical burnout, whenever you fall on this, what are some of the things that we can do to process it, to talk about it, to understand it, to combat it, maybe to work through it…

O: One thing that I found out within a few years back, and it was a simple idea but it was very effective and helped me a lot when I was, when I experience musical burnout and I use this a lot and it’s a concept that I think about. And the concept is…do something for yourself…and when I say that, it doesn’t have to be musical at all. 

M: Yeah, that’s important too. 

O: It does not have to be musical because you’re more than just the identity…you’re more than just music. We’re all more than just music although music is part of my every single day life. 

M: It’s probably the biggest part of my life…

O: It’s the biggest part of my life for sure, yeah. Music is definitely the biggest part of my life but it’s not my entire life. 

M: Yeah..

O: There are other things that I enjoy. I enjoy watching the office. I enjoy watching Schitt's Creek. I enjoy riding my motorcycle and I think that was one of those things that I did outside of music that’s what I can do for myself because, as we mentioned earlier, music is that thing that gives us purpose but when it’s no longer that thing that gives us purpose, what can also serve to fill the cup. What can we also use to fill the cup and I think it brings you back around…you find those things, for me, again these are my experiences, but I find that thing outside of music that I enjoy and for some reason it also happens to bring me full circle back to fall in love with music again. And an example of this is, I can get home after a home month of being on the road and I love South Texas, for me, the Rio Grande Valley is beautiful. It’s…you can see the spaces out, you can see the wide open spaces out in the farmlands and the South Texas sunset is amazing and on the back of a motorcycle, is an experience for me. And being someone that music has been such a part of my life, I think every day has a soundtrack. I’ve just personally, like I’ve always put a soundtrack to an entire moment in my life and I just always think of, like, “Easy Rider”, Peter Fonda, and Dennis Hopper, like that 70s riding on the back of a motorcycle in the West and just being, being able to put music to riding the motorcycle. Then I’m like. “Oh yeah!” and then I find myself listening to the Byrds or Pure Prairie League, or some cool like country rock stuff, The Eagles, and I’m just like “Man those harmonies are sick” and then I’m just like…

M: Reinspired…

O: Reinspired! Yeah and that re-inspiration comes from something outside of music…

M: Yeah, so I heard two really important things from what you just said and I kinda want to highlight those for a second. You mentioned a really important one of taking a break, whether that’s generally taking a break, taking a break from work, taking a break from whatever you’re doing, or taking a musical break, taking a break from music itself for just a little bit. Because I think we live in this musical bubble. For those of us who have a profession around music, we live in this musical bubble and we’re sometimes very focused on whatever part of that bubble that we’re in. We all have our own specialized music bubbles whether you’re producing or writing or touring or doing therapy or education, we’re all in this little bubble. So that kind of leads me to the second thing that you said of getting out of that bubble for a minute and maybe, listening to music, like you said, in a totally different context. And just, kind of, changing up your environment a little bit or changing how you interact with music or changing, you know, when you’re listening or if you’re listening at all.  

O: How you’re taking in music…

M: It could be one of those silence breaks. Yeah! So maybe instead of playing, having a musical output, having a musical input. Go listen to bands that you like. If you’re the one that usually on the stage, be in the audience. 

O: Yeah! That’s super good for me. I love doing that. 

M: Mhm. If you are a music educator, be a student, start a new instrument, learn a new song. 

O: You know, even learning from another individual could open the door to inspire you to teach in a certain way. 

M: Yeah…

O: Because it’s like I mentioned earlier, in this bubble that we all do that’s our niche, whether it’s a teacher, a performer, or a student, the product is music. I said, the entertainer comes with the idea that they’re gonna play and lay it all out on the stage. The teacher comes with, you have minds that are depending on you what they need to learn to get to the next level. And that’s the product that you’re delivering. As the student, you have to show your proficiency in the stuff that you’re taking in and so, I think that as we produce the product, we also have to be aware of the input, like we said, taking music in. 

M: And and I will also say too, since we’re talking about, you know this podcast is meant not just for musicians or music therapists, but also for anyone that loves music, that enjoys music, and you know all the internal things happening with music so if you are not someone who plays music but listens to music all the time, and you’re kinda feeling this, like, maybe a little stagnant in finding things that you like, or maybe resonating with some of the like, not looking for new music, maybe even you can flip it around and be the musician for a little while…

O: Yeah!

M: Learn an instrument. Take lessons,,,

O: Yeah, explore it…

M: My mom took piano lessons a couple years ago like for the first time and just absolutely loved it and she was like playing Jingle Bells and just totally rockin’ it! And it was really cool to see that so at any age and any setting in any way you can kind of change, change it up! Change how you interact with music and I think that, like you said, might lead to maybe hopefully some new inspiration, some new motivation, just a new way of seeing things. Just a new perspective on music itself. So, yeah that was really cool. Thanks for sharing that. 

O: Yeah, I think another thing that I do for myself and this, I feel like, is more specific to the touring musician, usually or for the gigging musician, usually for the gigging musician most of your work is on the weekends, right? Me, I’ll usually have like a Monday/Tuesday off and one thing that I’ve kind of done is like, make a priority to have Monday and Tuesday as my Saturday/Sunday. Treat my Monday/Tuesday as my weekend because sometimes I’ll get home and, like, yeah I’m exhausted from work but then there’s stuff that I have to keep up with at home…

M: Yeah…

O: It’s like, oh well I gotta do this, I gotta , you know, make sure the yard is cut, the hedges are presentable or whatever the case may be. But it’s okay to allow yourself that break because, I mean, think about mentally we’re thinking about all the things we have to do, and we’re forgetting about our physical self as well. 

M: Yes…

O: In that moment, it’s easy to forget about your physical self and allow your body the rest, you know cause there could be fatigue from…you could have mental fatigue or physical fatigue…

M: Cause that comes with stress too, that some of the parts of the brain that are affected or process burnout are the same ones that process like, general stress and that can be really challenging too so yeah, definitely, like taking time to rest and taking time to prioritize self care, whatever that looks like. And it doesn’t have to be this grand gesture of self care but even just little things that you can implement in your schedule on a day to day basis. Five, ten, fifteen minutes here and there in these small pockets of time to kind of just maintain that a little bit better and avoid, maybe reaching that other side of the continuum that’s the more severe experience of this. You know, and kind of catching it a little early on and just maintaining that. And again, that’s not always possible. I do wanna say, that’s not always possible so if that’s not possible for you, that’s okay. Um, but I think we can find resources and turn to our support systems and just kinda like, find ways to manage it, to make our day just a little bit easier. 

O: I think one thing also is, like you mentioned earlier, that sometimes other therapists aren’t going to be able to understand the musical burnout and then right now you mentioned support system. I think one thing, and as a music therapy student they mentioned this a lot, but turn to peers for peer support.  

M: Mhm. 

O: Peer support is valuable and it’s so….there’s some times where, you know, if I’m tired or, you know, there’s certain things I’ll message a buddy of mine, another bass player buddy of mine who also tours, and you know, they’ll tell me at times what I need to hear or what I’m looking for because they too share a similar experience as I do. So finding those peers that really know what’s going on with you in the sense that “Yeah I understand that you’re out on the road because I’m out on the road too”. Like, things that help me grow or things that I do to take care of myself on the road is this…and then you pick up better habits or, you know, if you want to be one of those people like I said earlier, who go in and just work out all the time, and if making healthy meals, if that’s what good for you then do that. I mean, health is a very, uh, it’s a very personal thing. 

M: Yeah, so even just finding people, like you said, to understand your experience because not everybody can. And I think that’s true of all situations. We can never really understand what someone else is going through, not not really. But we can find people who maybe have very similar experiences and can relate to us and provide us support and just say, “hey, like I get it…I felt like that yesterday. It was really hard”. Even that, in itself, is really meaningful. 

O: Mhm. 

M: So yeah, turning to your support system, prioritizing your own needs and maybe even setting boundaries for yourself when you are in a professional setting, boundaries for what you need, the time that you need, the space that you need and, um, that’s often difficult to do, but you know, whenever possible. And finding a schedule, maybe working on your schedule a little bit so that it is more balanced and it is more sustainable long term. 

So a couple other ones that I want to mention too, that we had written down because we kind of talked about this before so I wanna make sure that we get all of your thoughts in too and my thoughts so, um, so we talked about finding little ways to cope every day, but I think another big one that’s worth noting is not comparing ourselves to others. Not expecting ourselves to be at a certain place, you know, or to be as good as the next person but just kind of focusing on our own journey and what we need and what we’re going through.

Listening to new music. You said that earlier and I think that’s, for me, that’s a big one, is just finding new music, maybe something i’ve never heard before not even music that I like but in a different context but just something completely new like a totally new band that I can get really excited about and even sometimes that, kind of like re-sparks so maybe asking people to send you new music or just reaching out, pushing shuffle on Spotify and just seeing what kind of random songs come out and, you know, see where that takes you. Maybe even starting a new musical project - a side project if you will. I know that’s something we talk about all the time. We talk about doing something like that.  

O: Yeah..

M: But even, just doing something completely new so i think that new experience thing..

O: All girl rock band.

M: Yeah! I would love to do that! Yeah, that’d be great. And then lastly, if it’s too much to do on your own, just recognizing that that’s totally okay. You can reach out to people around you or reach out to professionals, you know, as needed. And maybe not even just traditional talk therapy, if you’re listening, just also know that there’s also other types of creative therapies. We talked about that creative process earlier but music therapy, art therapy, poetry, drama. There’s so many types of like, more creative or nontraditional therapies/alternative therapies out there now that, you know, maybe that’s a good fit for you. And if not, that’s alright too but, you know, it’s there if you need it. 

O: One thing that I do wanna say is, when you’re looking for things outside of music once you’ve had this musical burnout, don’t be afraid to like explore things outside because, just like when we started experimenting with music, like nothing came easy. Like, it took practice and self discovery and self understanding. It takes practice. It’s all an incremental thing and stepping outside of that comfort zone and like, you know, you say “Well, I wanna learn a different instrument”, or “I wanna try doing yoga instead” of, you know, whatever you decide to fill in for that self discovery of something outside of music or within music. It’s okay to not be perfect at it in the beginning. And I think it’s worth noting that it takes some self discovery and that’s a process, it’s part of the process of growing and understanding and coping. I try to keep all of those elements in mind, especially things that I learn in school, for sure.

M: Yeah,. I think you have such an interesting perspective, um, for this episode as a full time touring musician but also as a student, a music therapy student. I think, you kind of see things from a mental health perspective and then you kind of just see the reality of how hard things can be and how busy things can be. And how tired, it is, you can feel. 

O: Life.

M: Yeah. 

O: Yeah, when life happens…

M: Yeah, but thanks for kinda sharing some of your thoughts and also sharing your resources and what has been helpful to you and what this experience is like for you doing all of these things musically…

O: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s been really fun.

M: Yeah..

O: I’ve enjoyed my time here/

M: Yeah, and I feel like it’s a glimpse into what our conversations are like all the time!

O: Yeah and these conversations can go so much deeper though…

M: Yeah…

O: There’s so much depth, there’s so many layers that we have to peel back into understanding what is good for me. You know, how can I take care of myself? There’s so many layers that we have to peel back. 

M: Mhm. Mhm. 

O: But, I mean, it’s fun. You know, music is kind of what brings us all together in the sense of, this realm of being a music therapist or a music therapy student or gigging musician, whatever the profession is. Music is always the unifying factor. 

M: Yeah, for sure…

O: And I think, if we can…I like, you know, the idea of maybe sometime, maybe one of my experiences could maybe help out somebody else out there and be like hey, that’s a unique way of approaching things. You know, I hope to hear from other people’s experiences and learn from other individuals…

M: And that reminds me too. I recently discovered that, on our podcast, you can leave us voice memos or voice messages, so if you do wanna share a little bit about your experience has been like, we’d absolutely love to hear from you. So you can leave us a voice message. We have interactive polls usually after each episode if you want to share your thoughts, share your experiences, maybe share things you’d like to hear more about. And we’ll be happy to listen and take those in and maybe get back to you soon. 

O: And if you like the podcast, give it a follow! 

M: Yay!! I am really grateful for the opportunity to have these conversations and just to share a little bit about these experiences. Like I said, musical burnout is something that’s maybe not always talked about as much as just general burnout or music so it’s kind of interesting to just put those two things together in all these different ways and from all these different perspectives that we shared today. So thank you again for being here. If you ‘re interested in a little bit more about what Omar does, we will also share some links to his music and to the Moonpies and things like that so you can check them out, give them a listen. They’re doing wonderful things in the world of country music and it definitely deserves all the recognition and all the support so please go and listen to their music as well. Maybe stop by for a show! Who knows! Go try out one of those new experiences and go watch them live. Thanks for being here and hopefully we’ll talk to you soon. Until next time…bye!