Episode 05: The Musical Grey Area (with Allyson Rogers, MMT, MT-BC)

In this episode, we explore the world of neutral music - music that doesn't necessarily make you feel happy or sad but rather falls somewhere in between. We'll discuss the importance of this type of music and how it can provide a sense of comfort and support during uncertain times. Join our guest Allyson Rogers, MMT, MT-BC and dive into the conversation about why this type of music can be effective in regulating our emotions. Tune in to "The Musical Grey Area" and discover the power of neutral music through playlist creation, musical genres, research, Dorian mode, and our personal experiences as music therapists in private practice. 

Episode Resources:

• Study - “Music that is used while studying and music that is used for sleep share similar musical features, genres and subgroups”

• Article - “The Different Emotional Qualities Of Music Written In Various Modes” by Bright Star Musical

• Website - Learn more about Allyson’s private practice, Music & Miracles

• TikTok - Watch’s the TikTok that started it all on Allyson’s page

Episode Transcript:

Marisa: Hello everyone and thanks for being here today for the fifth episode of Musical Mindspace. In our last episode, we talked about musical burnout and how to reconnect with music in difficult and stressful times. Before we continue, I want to take a minute and thank everyone for the responses we got from that episode because we had people reach out to Omar and I about this topic and it was really nice to hear everyone’s experiences with this. As musicians, it’s not something that is talked about nearly as much, but it’s something that we all experience. So thank you for sharing that part of your life with us and I hope we can continue to center conversations about mental health for musicians moving forward in all of our lives. 

In this episode, I’m so excited to welcome a very special guest - Allyson Roger. Allyson is a board certified music therapist and she is the founder of Music & Miracles, a private practice located in Nashville, Tennessee specializing in general and perinatal mental health, family music therapy, and musician health and wellness. She received her Master‘s in Music Therapy at Temple University and her Bachelor’s of Science in Music Therapy from Texas Woman’s University. Allyson works with individuals, groups, and families navigating stress, anxiety, depression, parenthood, imposter syndrome, performance anxiety, and more. Outside of the clinic, Allyson advocates for music therapy as the Social Media Coordinator for the Tennessee Music Therapy Task Force. She also participates in the Nashville music scene as a pop singer/songwriter.

Allyson is doing so many wonderful things in the world of music. I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Allyson since my first day of music therapy classes. We’ve kept in touch over the last ten years and I have to say, I absolutely think the world of her. She is an incredible music therapist, a caring person, and a dear friend. 

Our topic for today is yet another aspect of music - something we’re calling the Musical Grey Area. In this episode, we’re going to explore the world of neutral music - music that doesn't necessarily make you feel happy or sad but rather falls somewhere in between. Neutral music is an important part of our lives and honestly, it’s not something I had really thought about before this episode. I’m interested to hear ya‘lls thoughts about this as well after the episode and I invite you to share your experiences on our interactive polls or leave a voice memo through the link in our podcast bio. We’d love to hear from you. 

So, this is what’s on our mindspace today…this is episode 5 - the musical grey area. 

Marisa: Hi, Allyson! 

Allyson: Hello!!  

M: I’m so excited to have you on my podcast today, I have to say.

A: Thank you! I’m so excited to be here! When you reached out, I was like “ohh my gosh!” I missed you and I’m just so excited to talk; I feel like we always have amazing conversation.

M: Yeah, even just before this I had to stop us just to start the recording, so I was just so excited to hear from you and see you and talk to you today.

A: Agreed. I am really excited to dive into this topic and have some discussion.

M: Yeah! So before we kind of jump into everything, would you mind telling everybody just a little bit about you and your background and what you're doing right now?

A: Sure! I am a board-certified music therapist, I have my master’s music therapy, and I run a private practice in Nashville, TN called “Music and Miracles” -it focuses on perinatal mental health, general mental health, and musician wellness. I also am an adjunct faculty at Belmont University - I provide clinical supervision for their students so I'm so excited, I love teaching, I love sharing about music therapy, and just bringing up the next generation. I'm just really excited to be with Belmont, they're great group of music therapists, so I get to learn from them too. Also, I work on the Tennessee music therapy task force, and we are working our butts off towards licensure! And outside of all of that, like that’s not enough, I'm also a singer-songwriter! I love playing all over Nashville and I do backup vocals for a band here called “The Mad Sugars”, so I just got my hands in a bunch of different musical places.

M: I feel like that's how it's always been ever since I met you- you've always kind of been like in a little bit of everything! So, everyone listening, I met Allyson on my first day of music therapy school when we were at Texas Women's University (TWU) in Denton and we've kind of kept in touch this entire time- even at a distance, we watched each other's journey through the last ten years! It's just been really cool to see you grow, change, and just do all the things that we always talked about- it's awesome!

A: I have the same privilege of seeing you do the same! Like every time I see you share on social media about what's going on in your practice, I just get this big smile because it just makes me think of all the times we were like “Yes! We're going to be businesswomen! And we’re going to educate people on this and share music!” So, it’s fun to see how we've grown and developed into where we are now. 

M: I feel like it's so cool to now have you on this podcast and it just makes sense to me now looking back that I would have you as a guest here to continue these conversations and continue talking about some of these really cool aspects of music-

A: Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here!

M: So, let me tell everybody a little about how this episode came to be: So, I was scrolling through Instagram while in between sessions and saw a reel that you uploaded about what you called the “musical grey area”. And, so, I reached out to you right away, as soon as I saw it, like this is exactly the kind of stuff that needs to be talked about as a podcast episode. I'm so grateful that you immediately were like “Yes! I'll do it, I'll be there.” 

A: You were so quick, I was like “yeah I will be on your podcast!”

M: I was like “Would you mind a talking about this a little bit more on the podcast?” I just I felt like I watched the whole thing through, and I was like yes!!! I had so many questions and I just wanted to know more, so I'm really excited to be able to ask you all those now.

A: I'm happy to talk about it! Quite honestly, like also share your thoughts. Really the reason I posted the reel was to start conversation! I feel like for me I love educating, but I also love sparking thought, discussion, and discourse, so I'm also just really curious to hear what you have to say about it as well and how it shows up in your world!

M: So, can you tell us… I know you mentioned in the reel/ TikTok that you mentioned these idea /conversations with patients, right? So, like can you tell us a little bit about that?

A: Yeah, it's so funny- I actually was digging through some old notes of mine and I found the note where I had written this out with a patient. So, this was a while back and this patient came in and we got into kind of this flow of really loving song sharing; because for some patient’s songwriting is really great, for others they love playing the instruments like being active with their music making, and some just really get a lot of insight out of just sitting and listening to songs (so, that was this patient). So, we sit down, and I go through my usual like “alright so what song do you want to use to check in today to kind of describe how you're feeling?” and this person was like, “you know I don't know….” They sat there for a little while and I could see that they were really thinking and struggling trying to figure out what they were even feeling. They were like “None of my songs really fit… like I have a lot of uplifting songs and I have a lot of songs that help me when I'm feeling sad / help me cry… But I'm not any of those and I don't even know if I have any songs that are in the middle that are just neutral.” With that, I was like taken aback- I kind of had to stop like “well, yeah you know”, and I mentioned this one, I'm like “yeah… you're so right. There's this musical grey area that a lot of us don't consciously acknowledge” because it's there. I always think about the ISO principle and how we take on emotion and shift it to another and you have to go through the grey area to get to the other place…But I never deeply considered it until this person was sitting there going “help! What are my neutral songs?” So, that's where this idea came from and I wrote it down and then just forgot about it, haha! I'll save it for a rainy day, I want to explore this more so yeah!

M: Well, I'm so glad that you brought it up and started this conversation because, you're right, I think as music therapists we think a lot about making playlists for different emotions, express different emotions, process different emotions, or, like you said, work through them from one end to the next if we want to change our shift on how we're feeling into a new state. You don't see a lot of just “what's your neutral playlist” right? Not a happy, not a sad, not a scared- just neutral. What does that look like? And I'm wondering how much of our time is spent in that neutral spot.

A: If you think about it, what is the like most common label that we put on ourselves when someone asks us how our day is? We're like, “I'm good”, “I'm fine”, “I'm OK”, like those are all neutral spots, maybe some lean more towards the positive end of the spectrum, but they're like the middle! So, I think this comes up a lot not just in therapy, but just in life in general. That we are so afraid of feeling something like “negative”, that we are like trying to avoid it in other ways. We're always trying to make ourselves feel bad for like not being excited/ exuberant because, yeah, it's not always that way. We're kind of supposed to live in the middle space and, so, it got me thinking about all of that- like of my clients, when they come in, a lot of them are in that middle ground. However, they're labeling themselves with happy songs, and maybe that is what describes their neutral space, but how we are avoiding that of what we're really feeling in the way that we use music.

M: That's so interesting because, as you were talking, I kept thinking of even stress wise like. Our body is meant to be at homeostasis and there's good stress, maybe getting married, planning a wedding, that's all-good stress- thinking about you now, haha- but it's still stress nonetheless on our bodies because we're not in the middle. Then, of course, there's bad stress which I think we're all more than familiar with, but our goal for our body is to usually be centered, to be grounded, to be in the middle. I think in general, as a society, we sometimes have a hard time being still, and I think we're always trying to move forward, we're trying to work towards something and just not be in that center space. I feel like I get conflicted because I'm like maybe mentally well, but not physically, or maybe emotionally I am, but academically I'm not. And, so, I'm kind of like in all these different places and different aspects, you know? And even that can be a little daunting or difficult to process. How do you even pick songs for that middle state? 

A: exactly and you know when we started talking about the podcast, I was reflecting on some of the questions you had sent me, kind of talking about what this musical grey area is; so, of course being the research nerd that I am, I started (to research) because I had my own thoughts. However, I was actually kind of curious if anybody else had talked about this because I'm sure somebody has somewhere, there's a ton of people that explore this musically, music therapists, scientists, etc. but I went out there and really nobody talks about “neutral music”. ^here's a lot of stuff about studying, sleeping, and relaxing which I think they all kind of fit some of the similar characteristics, but when I started realizing it's like OK you know obviously music and art can be a very subjective experience- we all have different ideas of what sounds happy or relaxing or you know angry, but there's just not a lot out there that talks about this holding space, this contained, neutral ground, so it's like we're just avoiding that space- 

M: yeah, or do we just brush it over to move on to the next thing? Are we taking it in? Are we being present for it? Are we allowed to feel it? 

A: Right! Yeah, so it's got me thinking a lot about like the emotion of indifference, even apathy, and how common that is of how all of us experience this indifference feeling. You're feeling tired and you're just kind of like “it is what it is” and I would hope that you know there's art out there that reflects that or that we can relate to. From posting that TikTok, I got a lot of comments of like “I think I've already identified my musical grey area” and a lot of people were sharing you know their “chill songs”, they're like lo-fi playlists, some even like pop contemporary songs. So, it was just kind of interesting to start that discussion of like what do you consider neutral?

M: it makes me wonder too… Are there similarities in musical elements? Or at least for us you know personally, what is their difference in the instrumentation for those neutral songs? Their difference in tempo? Is there a difference? Or maybe even correlations with either if there's lyrics that are just kind of like those types of musical elements? I'm wondering now what that would look like to express these neutral feelings or experiences… 

A: yeah, I can share kind of like my own personal thoughts… So, I consider this musical grey area, musically and lyrically, to be supportive- like containing very grounding, but also very open content. There's not necessarily anything that gets you really excited or uplifting, so like tempo wise: pretty moderate not a lot of modulation or any at all, just open sustained type chords that don't take you anywhere. Like, it's not super cathartic, you're not going to be crying. It's not Taylor Swift, like I love her, and I cried to her music a lot, but it's not songs that like get you really high or get you really low, essentially. And, so, for me I think I call my neutral music, depending on what I'm using it for I guess, instrumental. Because I relate to lyrics a lot, which is why I love artists like Taylor Swift and James Taylor… storytellers, because those are what like stories help me understand where I am emotionally and in my body. Music that has no words is easier for me to be very grounded and neutral, so I think almost like lo-fi, ethereal, “study music”, just new age type things, even songs that are contemporary which were on the radio when I was a child (because they're familiar but they're not necessarily ones that like take me to one place or another, they're just comforting). Those are the things that are my kind of neutral area. 

M: That's really interesting because I was about to ask you if you think there's aspect of familiarity… I think sometimes new music is so different that it kind of gets your attention more, you’re more alert, more focused on each thing that's going on. I think you're taking it in a lot more whereas something that you've heard a lot when you were younger can be maybe more passive, like a passive listening experience. It’s not as if you are being stimulated or something that you already know what's going to happen. It's just there and that's comforting too sometimes. When you know what's going to happen in the song, in a show… I don't know about you, but I guess to relate to anybody that's not a musician that happens to be listening, I do this with shows. I will get so intense about a show I will watch it all in a very small amount of time. I'll watch everything, I'll get all excited. For example, lately I've been watching one and I read all three books and I couldn't stop. It was like a whole 3 weeks I was watching TikTok’s and stuff and now that that's over I have what I call a “filler show”. I have like my filler comfort shows like maybe, “The Office”, “Schitt’s Creek”, “New Girl” … like those types of shows, so I'm wondering if that would kind of be similar as like a neutral song.

A: Definitely! Think about like physiologically… It's predictable! No like feelings of suspense or anxiety, like we know exactly what's going to happen, how it's going to end, and it just feels comforting because it's like we already know. I talked about this a lot, I love giving music psychoeducation to my clients, and we talk a lot of it how when you're listening to new songs it feels so uncomfortable and even artists that I love sometimes. I'll listen to a new album, and I'll be like “oh I don't know if I really liked it” and then by like the second or third listen it's my new favorite thing ever! So yeah, like it feels uncomfortable, it's new, we all experience that with change and novelty. I think there is something to be said in that for this musical grey area creates things that are predictable and comfortable and familiar. They're needs to be research that can be done around that and why because I'm always one of those that's like” but why???” I think to have that backing can lead to tell us, “Why?”- That would be nice.

M: Yeah, I also would love to hear other people's experiences! Like if this was an interview type situation! I would love to just hear other people's thoughts and what their songs are! When they hear these songs… If there's moments that they feel like they come back to those maybe… in like periods of change? Just to use these songs as a way to ground or to validate when we are feeling that way. I feel like there's just many things, and you talked a little bit about the musical elements that you felt resonated with you at that time. I think a lot of them were very similar to what I would imagine for musical grey areas. Like instrumental and I would think of something just holding the space. there's a piano piece that I'm thinking of right now and the name is slipping, but you know what I learned how to add stuff to podcast, so I'll add it to the end! Maybe we can each put a song there! It definitely is just like moderate pace and it's just kind of neutral- I don't know it's kind of like I imagine that I'm not running or even walking, I'm just standing still for a moment.

A: I think it is so empowering to find music like that because as a society how many times do we just sit and stand or stand still? I have so many adult patients that tell me I don't remember the last time I sat and listened to a song like intently listened. Like when do we give ourselves that space to just sit and be OK with whatever is in our brains or in our bodies? I think to just exist- that's what this client was really trying to convey to me of like just needing to be for a moment and to not have to feel a certain way and to find something that would just like validate that for a moment.

M: Transitions are really hard sometimes. Always in transition I feel like from one end to the other, you talked earlier about this earlier, like Iso principles. So, for those of you that are music therapists, I'm sure you’re familiar with Iso Principle, but for those of you that aren't, maybe any music educators listening, it's something that we do in music therapy where we'll meet the client where they are emotionally- their general presentation. We'll meet them whether it's a really energetic place, maybe a place of pain, or even if it's something softer, maybe it's a really relaxed state, and we're trying to move into a different direction whatever that would be! For example, maybe you are feeling sad, but we are moving to a “happy place”, for lack of a better words. Just a general way to describe it from a place of pain to a place of comfort something that would be almost the opposite I guess or just a very different place. You talked about that, when you go from one end to the other, when you're in that transition between one to the other, you do (at some point) kind of have to hit that neutral place. 

A: I had a lot of questions on this Instagram reel; for example, how do we do this? How do we navigate this? I am like wanting to recommend people to just sit down because, like I said, we all have a different version of neutral, so it's going to be important to sit down and be like “OK”. Like, moderate tempos help me to just sit and be there, but for others a little bit faster, something that does your body stimulates too. And, well, think about genre wise… Like for some need slower tempos, but for my fiancé, he loves metal and finds it incredibly comforting and calming. For me, it gives me a ton of anxiety and I'll listen to it, but it makes my heart rate go fast like I feel really like I have to move like -

M: - I'm like that with Omar, also! I have the same response, so I'm totally resonating with everything you're saying. That's me in the car on the way to the grocery store and I'm like, “ohhh… What is happening now?” and Omar is as calm as ever, haha! 

A: Like, “I can't make this song! it's too dark! My chest hurts! I'm starting to get sweaty!” Haha!... But we all have our comfort levels. It's just allowing yourselves to explore that space find what works for you. Actually, in the midst of like prepping for this today, I went and found a study that talked about studying music. It focused on like more focused/ intentional music vs. sleep music. For the longest time, both of those things were considered as being very calm and not super arousing to us. You know, not to distract us from our studying or to distract us from sleep. They. The conductors of this study, shared in there how they were really surprised as how the way that music was being described across the literature, across the research, was very different compared to what had been originally theorized. For example, instead of these calm/ noncomplex songs, they were noticing that there was like some pretty big variation from music that people were using. So, they analyzed all of these Spotify playlists that had anything to do with sleep or studying and they identified some overlapping genres and characteristics! The top five genres, I found this really interesting, are 1. Pop, 2. Lo-fi, 3. Classical, 4. Soundtrack, and 5. Instrumental 

M: wow that's me-

A: NO RIGHT! Same!

M: I definitely think lo-fi is a big one and, I dont even think I made that connection until you said the top 5, but that's what I usually have on in our office lobby. I think it's neutral, that's what I listen to when I'm like studying or when I don't know what song I want to hear, like I mentioned when I don't necessarily want something with words I listen to those type of music. Thought, lo-fi is my main one!

A: isn't that funny? I was reading this at the end and they basically said that they were surprised that study and sleep music were more similar to each other than to general music. Which is funny because when you think about relaxing sleep music, you're thinking about lower arousal of the body, to be able to induce sleep. However, with studying, you want to have arousal to stay focused, to have that competitive power to study, but the characteristics that were across the genres were less loud/fast and more instrumental to create this “pleasant auditory environment”. I think maybe that's our neutral music. 

M: Sometimes for me I that's what I hear in the background or like when I'm at more neutral places. I'm thinking like a bookstore or just places where there's constantly different people coming in and out. I hear those types of music to those genres because I think it's something that everybody is going to be able to relate to in that way or something that will kind of just be neutral, for lack of a better word, for everybody… 

A: It kind of blew my mind and it kind of validated some thoughts that I had. I'm like “what is neutral?” “What does that look like?” So, it was nice to find something that validated that. Then, the other thing I found that I'll share, we were talking earlier about elements of music or characteristics, well I was talking about more open chords, more suspended chords. Well, this other article mentioned the modes; Dorian mode, which I have my little piano here - hopefully it hears for you, Dorian mode is kind of this calming, neutral mode, so it sounds like *plays Dorian scale*. It doesn't take you really anywhere like minor does. Minor has more dissonance, major has more consonance, and Dorian just kind of sits there. There's like no lead into the next thing.

M: it just kind of goes up and down-

A: Yes! I was like, “oh the mods”- I don't know why, Haha!

M: That's so cool actually and it just sparks so many thoughts too. I'm wondering now what the other modes might represent to us…I'm sure we'll get some answers in upcoming episodes, might be something to keep thinking about!

A: I know! I don't play with the modes enough. That's a goal of mine is to incorporate some more of that into my sessions. But I was like, “OK… that kind of it puts some words to that kind of open ethereal feeling that I was trying to describe- that there's no leading into any kind of emotion there.”

M: I'm wondering to if there's any resources based on modes for like improv and with these types of feelings because I'm thinking of Nordoff Robbins, maybe music centered music therapy… I'm going to have to look into that now that you said, like any resources on that might look like, also as an improv. Maybe not even finding songs… If sometimes it's hard to find a song maybe that would represent these, but there's still so many ways to express that musical grey area and maybe if you can't find a song that exists, or nothing just feels right, maybe an improv and just being there… Sitting there and processing it exactly what that feels like to you. What that space/ sound sounds like, what would it feel like, and, even, either composing or improvising from that place-

A: It doesn't even have to be melodic. It can be any kind of progressive instrument or just to study with them, so taking off some of the judgments, questions, and the neutral one is trying to define correctly for themselves- 

M: Or even the expectations of what songs/music I am playing. Being in that it kind of reminds me of the drum circles that we do sometimes here in the community because it's just everybody coming together and playing how they're feeling in that specific moment. And as energetic as some drum circles are, I think some of them are also very neutral in the sunset. I think we all just meet together in a place that's just a steady revamp… What made me think about that is that you said it doesn't even have to be periodic and sometimes I think taking the melodic out could make it even more neutral or possibly whatever that's for you. But I think I can see that for me: I could see how just sitting at a djembe or with a big drum would really help me personally through that feeling.

A: Yeah, same! Being a vocalist, I lean more into melody; words and melody leads me and so I find myself, when I'm needing to just sit and be present, leaning more towards like a gathering drum… something nice and rich like giving me all the vibrations. 

M: Also, as for you, as a songwriter, I imagine that if you heard chords, your brain would start to think of music, and it would start making melodies and words would come to mind… So maybe keeping it just percussive would keep it there at that place? 

A: yeah! I hadn't thought about it that way but yeah…

M: No, I was just wondering-

A: -No, yeah, because (I'm sure you can relate to this) when you go out and go listen to bands or you're hearing a song in the grocery store, your brain just starts going. It's hard to turn off that musical musician brain… It's finding the things that are not going to trigger an emotion and just allow you to be very present and not try to take you anywhere because we're always trying to run away from what it is – just being.

M: We're just running towards something… Somewhere we're trying to go… I love this!

A: Me too, hah!

M: I love this so much! I love these types of conversations! I want to talk about one more thing: I know you mentioned this too in your TikTok, but you suggested for anybody listening or watching to possibly create their own playlist. For somebody that has never done that before or is listening and just isn't sure where to start what would you recommend for them?

A: Yeah, so kind of like I was saying earlier, sitting down and thinking about the songs that feel comfortable. Meaning, for me when I sat down to do this, I was like, “this is kind of an interesting task… Where am I going to start?” I just started reflecting on music that helps me feel real and music that I remember being on in the background that didn't necessarily make me feel anything. However, the song has a pleasant memory around it, so I started leaning more towards things that I heard in the car when I was a kid. I was trying to explore some of those songs and noticed that is it something that made me want to get up and dance or was it something that I just listened to in background because my mom was listening to it? It's comforting… 

I also started identifying some of the lo-fi and new age music that I use in my office when I'm just doing tasks. What's the music that is on in the background and is it creating this pleasant auditory environment, but it's not really doing anything for me except holding the musical space.

So, I would suggest like starting there: Reflecting on what are the things that feel comfortable and feel grounding. Identifying characteristics when you're listening to songs. Asking yourself, “Is this making me feel like super energized? Really sleepy?” Really, just becoming present with your brain and your body and take it from there!

M: Yeah, mindful of where you’re at, what this feels like, and what that sounds like to you…

A: Yeah, it really is. It’s an active mindfulness, it's an act of intentionality. I think that's what I was trying to share in a very short time frame on my reel: sitting with that feeling and how that'll lead you somewhere else or just to give you comfort with those feelings. Using that as more of like a magnifying glass to identify what's going on, otherwise it's easy to get distracted with something else or feel like you need to distract yourself because we all have to see things going on. However, it's important to give yourself space to notice those things coming up in your body and your brain.

M: I think you said that in the reel, about using it as a check in feeling. Instead of, “what do I need?” you said, “What do I need right now? What does my body need? What does my mind need? What does my heart need?” “How can I sit here to feel it?” Then staying in that for as long as I need- to which is a reminder that it's okay to stay in it for as long as you need to, then slowly shift into something else. For example, you mentioned one song could lead you into another song to another song to another song and then all of a sudden, you're in a totally different place… But I think we need to sit in that first one to get there comfortably and just in a positive/meaningful way-

A: Exactly, exactly! And not judging ourselves! There's so much judgment around the art that we enjoy, the media that we consume… Just judgment and expectation, but I know a lot of clients don't want to share certain songs because they have made fun of for it or they're afraid of what they're going to feel when they listen to it or what they're going to remember when they listen to it. It is really coming from this place of curiosity… We educate about the power of music and how when we're most intentional with it, how it can be an awesome tool, but we have to be careful to not let ourselves sit in a place forever and to become aware when it is leading into behaviors that could be harmful… so it's recognizing that too!

M: I have a friend from Temple University, Lizzie, and she, during one of our classes, brought that up: about like music and rumination and how sometimes even sitting in one song for too long can be almost maladaptive because you're staying in that feeling. It has happened to me - where I get stuck in one song, and I spiral. It's easy to let that reinforce that feeling over and over again. You can kind of get stuck there for a little bit too long, so definitely something being mindful of with all of those experiences, really present and in tune with what our bodies, feeling and needing in the moment, and kind of taking it step by step, day, time, and song at a time.

Well, I'd love to hear some of y'all 's songs, for you all that are listening! I'm really curious! We just learned more about how to use our interactive pools on Spotify, so if you're listening from Spotify, I'm sure we can share a little link on our social media about how to get to that specifically, but you can leave a voice memo if you have any thoughts about this! We'll have a poll where you can share your songs also! I know Ally and I would absolutely love to hear more neutral songs or your musical grey area playlist! Please send all of them we'd love to hear your thoughts and just kind of explore that a little bit with you!!

A: Yeah! Definitely keep the conversation going! It's a topic that needs to be explored more!

M: Well, thank you for exploring it with us here in this space, for being here, and sharing all of your thoughts/experiences. It’s such a wonderful Saturday that I get to sit here and have these types of conversations with you! So, thank you very very much for being here!

A: Oh, thank you so much for having me! I just love these opportunities to get to see friends and have such meaningful conversation! It fills my cup, and it reminds me like why we do what we do. Thank you, thank you for inviting me to this space!

M: Thanks for everybody listening! Thanks for your continued support and your ongoing support coming back to these episodes, hearing what we have to say as music therapists, and listening to our unique perspective of music and to what's on our Mindspace for each episode! Thanks for being here! 

There'll be some resources: the studies that Allyson mentioned will be on our blog post, we'll have a transcript, and we'll share some of those resources there as well so you can continue reading/ continue learning about this topic! Again, share your thoughts if anything comes up, but until next time… We'll see you soon! Bye!